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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:13 pm 
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I agree with all the above posts, but I still think sharing/sampling music is different from taking it for free because you know you can get away with it. copying albums you love for other people and having them copy albums for you is an extremely important way of circulating and discovering new music. I share all my music with my little sister, and don't begrudge her downloading pirated stuff because she's a student and has no money to spend on it anyway...but then some of my workmates, who have the same relative income as me, refuse to pay any money for music at all, simply because they don't have to. that just seems greedy and opportunist to me, and it bothers me especially because they're artists as well. lots of people I know in the local band scene cry poor when it comes to buying records, but always seem to have money for beer/heroin/ice/whatever.

I think the internet has probably been amazing for independent musicians - without it I would never had heard most of the music I love, especially because the local record stores here are woeful. so clearly it has made music more accessible worldwide, and reduced/solved the problem of small labels lacking distribution in record stores. but I don't necessarily think you need to download a whole album to decide if you like it or not, and I think people are sometimes being disingenuous when they claim that's what they're doing - most contemporary artists (who are the subject of this debate of course) have songs in music players on at least one website somewhere. I heard holy sons on myspace and was able to buy decline of the west in mp3 format immediately from emusic, then trusted in the quality of the rest enough to buy them outright from pamlico. it really wasn't difficult or expensive - each of those albums cost less than half of what it cost me to get indian takeaway last night.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Part of the reason this conversation might not be super pertinent on the PSM jamz is that you and I are mostly part of a subset that still desires music objects while also downloading-- but here's some things that came into my mind::
@Eschaton:: the book you quoted was published in 2004,,, I've noticed a lot of change since then,,
for a quick example,, Touch and Go went under since that time... I seriously doubt this had to do with "the average price of a CD rising from $13.04 to $14.19" as that book reported... ...is Touch and Go one of the 'large conglomerates' you mentioned that's spinning the narrative of lost money?,,, When we signed to Drag City and went to Chicago there was palpable fear in their eyes from the Touch and Go meltdown,, they were scared as hell... I went into their stock room and they had one little bookshelf for their CD stock... they bluntly said they never have to repress CDs by any artist anymore... now,, to assume mathematically that all the old revenue that came from their CD sales has perfectly melted into their digital sales seems prettttty optimistic -- but maybe more importantly,, to assume that yr fellow man is as honest as you,, and if you just put out food for donation and expect that during the night other people's morality will be similar to yrs,, could be a naive venture... --"Another thing we must keep in mind is that most downloads do not represent a lost sale." ::The key word here is "most",,, and that opens up a slippery slope..
I'd say you represent one of the most optimistic takes on the situation I've heard,, and it is nice to remember that there is some upside to the modern predicament...

atgmartin has some good points about the impersonal/less passionate culture of bit-torrenting vs. old-skewl cassette dubbing/sharing...
for example::

this guy's obviously a fan,, but do you think everyone he enables comes from the same place he does?

kmeis:: "I see very little difference between the musician and the mathematician, other than how they make money."
I do understand that both are driven by a specialized passion,, but the fact that a mathematician is generally thought of as someone living on a salary for teaching seems to change the game a little (unless I'm misunderstanding yr example),,, but in addition,, the musicians I've known who get paid salary-like wages are not necessarily better musicians for it from my view,, but they have a massive head-start on seeking out and maintaining an audience...
perhaps as atgmartin says,, none of this may ever be 'quantifiable' -- but I'll say that economics have impacted HolySons definitively... $$ is exactly why I can't put out the 3 records I have right now... but quantifying why that money isn't there is to open up a question about the values and taste of our community,,, which would probably be wayyy messier//but possibly more interesting...

Ames,,, yr 2nd paragraph above pretty much describes my buying habits//attitude,,, and being an R.Stevie Moore fan,, he's a great example of someone who's clearly entirely independent,, so I would actually feel tangibly bad not paying him directly for a record,, Its nice to actually like something enough to feel that way!



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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:16 pm 

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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:45 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:32 am 

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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:40 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:33 am
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Hey, I am one of the poster's on Circling The Drain. I got linked here through Google. If the artist/label has a problem with the discography post I would be happy to taken down all the DL links. The blog is ran mostly through band/label request and things I find through Bandcamp that are offered for free. I thought it would be cool to introduce Holy Sons to the Punk/Hardcore crowd that mainly visits the blog. I should have posted a link as to where to find the music for purchase and I apologize for not doing so.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:16 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:36 pm
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I suppose what I meant to say through my comparison, was that there is a distinct difference in how many view knowledge obtained through (for better purposes of illustration) "creative" arts (namely: music) and those gained through "analytical" arts (mathematics). I use these terms loosely, simply to for the distinction.

I mean, if you look back before piracy became so easy, from a mathematician's view (if he assumes his knowledge is of the same type as that of the musician) people have been not only pirating his work but multiple people pirate it and make money from it without any reimbursement to the artist. Now, when piracy was available to pretty much anyone to a computer it also brought along the availability of legally free information. To most people, looking at the analytical arts, this once a huge benefit. Now loads of information is out there for free for anyone interested and dedicated enough to look through them, just in the same way music is. However, for many creative artists (not specifically anyone on this forum, just in general) this new age of information was a negative in terms of finances.

Basically, most musicians would be in an outrage if people stole their albums and then sold them for their own profit.

I do not mean to say that I dislike when artists sell their music. In fact, I think its almost necessary to in the current state of our society, but I do not think that there is any distinction between the products of the analytical artist and the creative one (I feel that they mostly follow the same processes too). As said above, I think its mostly caused by our views on what constitutes an art and what should be economically worthy and what should be free. To me, I think, that creative arts should be viewed much in the same way as the analytical. In that, they should be free for the sake that allowing more people to view them could possibly expound on what the previous artist has discovered.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:36 am 
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My instinct is to leave the download page up for now,, maybe even expand the page with more info and/or just say that you've talked to the artist and they're cool with it .... maybe make the buy link say that it's going directly to the artist,,, I'm not sure,,, do any of you other forum jammers have an opinion on this?? -- the more I think about it now if there was anything I'd change,, I'd take down 'Enter the Uninhabitable' to make it something you have to search harder for,, remaining for people who care just a little bit more... 10-4



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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:40 pm 
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