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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:34 pm 
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altar-ego wrote:
If you really want to foment the slow revolution, the only RIGHT kind of revolution, make art, give it away anonymously, and don't worry about what happens to it. Paint a picture, don't sign it, install it late at night, unseen by others, in a public space in a way that isn't destructive to the space it's hung in, e.g. on cardboard hung with rubber cement, and leave. Then don't be upset when it's gone. It went into the ether, and the people who saw it, and the way it was presented aren't affected by you, or the way you look, or anything attached to you.


sorry, just one more thing: when did it become a crime to have some kind of identity as an artist, and to have that identity reflected in your work? to me, the human element in art is extremely important, and enriches it tenfold. I loved holy sons from the moment I heard it, but I loved it even more after reading a few interviews with emil, and even more again after meeting him and participating in these forum discussions. similarly, I have a friend who possesses little artistic skill, but paints raw expressionist self-portraits as a way to help him through his mental illness; were it not for his identity I'd have little interest in these paintings, but as an extension of his character they become extremely touching images.

I could be wrong, but right now I can't think of a single instance where anonymity is actually of benefit to either the artist or their art. it could, however, remove any guilt someone might feel for enjoying said art without having paid for it...


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:24 pm 
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amy wrote:
I can't think of a single instance where anonymity is actually of benefit to either the artist or their art.
Banksy


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:36 am 
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mobese wrote:
amy wrote:
I can't think of a single instance where anonymity is actually of benefit to either the artist or their art.
Banksy


sure, if you're into that sort of thing. but there's still a distinct identity attached to his art, even if we don't know who it is...he's not anonymous in the same sense that altar-ego was talking about, or you wouldn't know the name banksy.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Yeah,, I'd call what Banksy has more of a 'notoriety',, not really 'anonymity'... he's the most famous street artist in the world and how anonymous is that really? ..how much more would you know about him if you knew his name was "Phillip Rottenbush" anyway... he's interviewed throughout the documentary... and his particular 'anonymity' has more to do with the Spectacle of Banksy more than the art itself,,, the spectacle is what's driving up the prices of his work to the complete suckers that want to be a part of what they see as an important pop-culture moment... plus,, like the Bjork's and Beck's who've been let through the golden gates to financial freedoms,, there's only 1 ultra-famous Banksy,,, Banksy is not a working template for how to be an artist... I think people who may not know what its like to pour yr entire life into trying to communicate thru art and have it not come to fruition because of shifting fashions and bogus politics should have a 1 on 1 talk with someone like David Lynch about this stuff,, someone who you might respect that has to bust ass to find financial backing every time he wants to make a film and constantly fight against the tides of bullshit... more importantly,, what about the 900 other David Lynches there would've been in the last 50 years who weren't able to create enough of a brand/cult of personality to complete their projects and/or communicate anything in their time... ...take a look into yr CD collection and I doubt you will see many artists that randomly put a painting on a wall and then walked away in an anarchist ecstasy... I hate to say it,, but the history of underdog artists has been one strewn with utter despair,, sociological oppressions and immense frustration about their inability to communicate to the outer world. 10-4

ps. Amy,, did you see the Banksy documentary?,,, the end is a pretty funny/disturbing picture of what yr talking about when a guy Banksy knows gets famous for basically putting stencils of celebrities on the wall... I totally recommend seeing it to anyone just to ask yourself some basic questions about art and how its received...
Banksy's manager says it best when he says "I don't know who the joke's on... or if there is a joke"... ...in terms of Girl Talk,, here's one of my favorite quotes from Tolstoy:::

"Art, in our society, has been so perverted that not only has bad art come to be considered good, but even the very perception of what art really is has been lost. In order to be able to speak about the art of our society, it is, therefore, first of all necessary to distinguish art from counterfeit art."
"there are people who have forgotten what the action of real art is, who expect something else from art (in our society the great majority are in this state), and that therefore such people may mistake for this aesthetic feeling the feeling of diversion and a certain excitement which they receive from counterfeits of art."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzCO7dQweUI&feature=related[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:29 am 
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unconfused wrote:
I hate to say it,, but the history of underdog artists has been one strewn with utter despair,, sociological oppressions and immense frustration about their inability to communicate to the outer world. 10-4

nicely said. and if one was to spend a few moments investigating the lives and careers of important/influential artists, you'd find that the vast majority were either ridiculed in their day and only venerated after they'd died in poverty, or they were funded/propped up by investors and patrons who valued what they did. the only reason we're even aware of directors like david lynch and werner herzog is because they were indulged when they were young film students and offered grants to develop their work. without that funding to kickstart their careers they'd be as unknown today as any other brilliant film-maker whose work we'll never see. the old masters of classical painting and sculpture were only able to develop their art through the patronage of the wealthy - afterall, a 17ft block of marble is gonna cost you some coin, let alone paying someone to carve the figure of a naked man from it. yet somehow as a society we have forgotten the importance of investing in art, and many of the would-be masters of today will no doubt suffer the fate of the underdog artist that emil described.

unconfused wrote:
ps. Amy,, did you see the Banksy documentary?,,, the end is a pretty funny/disturbing picture of what yr talking about when a guy Banksy knows gets famous for basically putting stencils of celebrities on the wall... I totally recommend seeing it to anyone just to ask yourself some basic questions about art and how its received...

I haven't seen it, no... is it even really a doco, or is it actually scripted? either way, it sounds like some good food for thought/fodder for debate. I don't particularly dislike banksy, I just think what started as quaintly eye-catching graffiti has now become one of the worst influences on/hallmarks of modern art....whether that's banksy's fault or that of his adoring fans I'm not so sure. but he's certainly outstayed his welcome, and the value of his work is overstated to an embarrassing degree.

unconfused wrote:
"there are people who have forgotten what the action of real art is, who expect something else from art (in our society the great majority are in this state), and that therefore such people may mistake for this aesthetic feeling the feeling of diversion and a certain excitement which they receive from counterfeits of art."

still not sure about tolstoy, but I can definitely relate to this. when smart people claim to love some shitty piece of stencilled crap in a gallery, or whatever horrible wugazi shit they're into right now that they think is really clever, I feel like saying "keep thinking". it's like they block the critical part of their minds out and just go with that first response every time... I'm sure it's deliberate. the same people are usually quite uncomfortable with genuine expression.

just found what is art? on archive.org if anyone's keen to read it:

http://www.archive.org/details/whatisart00tolsuoft


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:59 pm 

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The aspect of street art I find interesting is the act of illegally and inexorably implanting art into the landscapes before our eyes. The adventure is a good thing and it was fun to watch in the film. I'm not a big fan of Banksy and most of the street art examples though. The images are pretty bold (in drawing near to clichés) and I'd have a hard time distinguishing between the genuine expression of a Banksy and a Shepard Fairey for the reason that there really are no big differences. The pop-codes and clues overgrow the rest and that's what lacks to captivate me.
A funny thing with the distinctiveness of expression whether visual or musical, is that there really seems to be no way of approaching. Techniques, skills and mimicries, even large knowledge of genuine examples but not the defining bit to make a difference. Realistically most of our art, most art shown and done does not have it.
I used to think it has something to do with honesty but I have to amend.. There's loads of honest stuff out there that still doesn't have it. I felt compelled to relate it to a certain mental incapacity but that'll be too easy, I guess. Taking someone like Daniel Johnston in an attempt to distill the feature in his voice that transports this specific notion of outlying truth just doesn't lead anywhere. And who wants to know really?
The good thing about all this is, it's not so important. An endless lifetime in a tiny drawer of human history isn't that big of a deal either.. given that humanity is such a tit sucker.

There's a dokumentary on Bas Jan Ader I'm having trouble finding on the web. Good title after all.



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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:34 am 
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We talk a lot about honest art, but we can't delude ourselves into thinking artists are any less attuned to market shares or demographics than anyone else. Artistry, no matter how noble a pursuit it might be, makes the artist no less human. I don't think it says anything perverse about the state of art. It's just that we get caught up with the grandeur of art, and forget that it can't not be tainted, in some form. Art is like gold: The least useful gold is unalloyed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:48 am 
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http://bombsite.com/issues/101/articles/2951

This interview does a great job of offering a real/dry take on the struggles of an independent/homemade musician that has literally never caught a break,,, people are starting to notice him a little bit lately because of the Ariel Pink connection,, but the tide isn't exactly going to turn... >>this is me in a few years... and I'm prepared to own it!,,,
..I do think that his age is a factor in his less-visable-ness,,, and that's a little disturbing... there's a lot of young music getting press as we speak that seems purely interesting to people because its merely an expression of youth or young energy... -these things won't be changing soon...

"...because I’ve had such an intense, nonstop struggle getting any attention it amazes me that I must continue relying so much on the godfather tag. Ain’t too proud to beg, said the beggar man. How can a godfather remain so unknown by everyone? It must be a lie! A myth!"

"Pretty pathetic is the dry concept of a living artist imagining a public celebration of his work after he dies! Which has become quite a common thing these days, or even more specifically, a public “con$uming” of his posthumous “product.”

It is really starting to feel weird approaching age 60 and still struggling like a teenager. Not a contented feeling at all! ...Man, I’ve only got a couple hundred dollars. Where did I go wrong?" -R.STEVIE


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:40 pm
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Great guy. Equally comprehensible and unfortunate that bitterness wormed it's way in.

Quote:
Forever I’ve accepted that the original Nashville era of home taping (1973–78) was pure unadulterated superior inspiration, many facets of which have been regrettably lost after I moved to New York City to get rich and famous. And how ironic that years of experience have not made me necessarily a better player, producer, writer, arranger, etc.
Honest, hands down.

Still I'm not on point trying to find the proper line between corrupted strive and the sheerness of irrational expression. I remember having some far out discussions in art school about the topic and my petrified state on that used to be " You do this, you're never gonna have the money. If that's inacceptable, you shouldn't be here. " Part of me still goes with it but another knows one purpose behind the sloagan is evading the disappointment.
And then, thinking of how only the recurrent thought of purpose, fame and acknowledgement is able to corrupt the latitude of almost everyone's expression offers quite an outlook on how the actual fruition is gonna operate on it. Like what happens when suddenly everyone knows.. and the picture and voice of You is tatooed onto your visionary nerve a thousandfold.
For real, that's usually the end. But it still comes on like it'll be the beginning .

A friend of mine made quite a sweet video with a bunch of leaves on this theme.. Good title after all.


http://vimeo.com/22482741


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 Post subject: Re: The Problem.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:41 am 
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So what is the difference between sincere self-expression and sincere self-expression that is commercially viable? Is it better to create art, or create form (for lack of a better word) that is profitable, and are the two necessarily exclusive?

I'm not trying to digress here by bringing this up again, but piracy is good if we believe in the nobility of art and its ability to communicate on a deeply human level, wouldn't we want art to be as available as possible?

Image


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